eCommerce Pyramid Scheme
If it’s too good to be true, it probably is
First Contact
So…I recently got approached on LinkedIn by a guy. We apparently went to the same university and at the same time, so that was an instant way to connect to me. “Hey, I noticed you were an Alum too!”
Anyway, the next line got me hooked, but only because I am open-minded and have always wanted to do some extra work on the side. I’m also into networking, which seemed to be a potential prospect. “A few of your qualities in your profile caught my attention. We have some projects and would like to partner with some like-minded people. Just thought I’d shout out and see if you would like some opportunities in addition to your current role.”
So, I responded with an enthusiastic text about our school, then asked the very poignant question, “what in particular about my profile caught your attention?” and “what are you involved in?”
He responded by saying that he liked my management, public speaking, and customer service skills…and that many of his partners were also engineers. The fact that many of his partners were engineers is what I would describe as a “good hook”. He is trying to appeal to not just my profession, but many engineers are proud of the fact they are engineers. He was in a way appealing to my pride and asserting that other intelligent people are part of this too.
Yes I am a manager and an engineer, but I’ve never touted any public speaking or customer service whatsoever (I’ve never done any of those things) or mentioned them in my profile. So that was the red flag for me and it signaled that the message he sent was probably a pre-made response and meant to be a catch-all. Just ambiguous enough to draw your interest.
So when he responded with the above, I pressed again asking “I’d still like to know more about the projects you are working on.”
He gave me this shakedown:
“We are currently looking to add a few people to our organization on a select basis who are outcome focused vs process oriented, free thinkers, interested in business ownership / entrepreneurship, willing to learn new concepts, and like the idea of business mentorship. In terms of logistics we are partnering with some major consumer brands (REI, Apple, Target, & Macy’s to name a few) and helping them link up with local entrepreneurs doing some revenue sharing, group purchasing, etc. in the e-commerce arena. What kind of opportunities do you keep your options open to? Let me know your thoughts. Maybe we can move this to a quick phone call and chat more?”
Okay, I’ll bite, but only because I want to get to the bottom of this and your response was totally prefabricated.
The Phone Call
We talked for about 45 minutes – it was about who he was, who I was, what I was looking for in my career, etc. The second half of the conversation he steered toward this “opportunity”. “You have kids, wouldn’t you want to spend your time with them instead of at a job? Wouldn’t you want to spend as much time with your family as you could? Go on vacation, enjoy your retirement when you get there…” etc. Yeah, duh. Who wouldn’t?
I kept pressing about what it was exactly that he did and what I would be doing if I got this opportunity. It’s not that he was deflecting my questions, but he was responding with ambiguous and nebulous answers. It was an “eCommerce opportunity” and he named some of the big stores like Target, Macy’s, REI, Apple, and how they are trying to compete with eBay and Amazon. The goal of this position is that he is a talent scout, looking to recruit like-minded people that share a passion for the “entrepreneurial spirit” and could think outside of the box. The problem with this argument is that you’re essentially asking the person “hey, are you smart enough to do this kind of stuff?” because most people won’t admit to not being smart enough or having enough drive or not being entrepreneurial enough. It’s a very interesting tactic.
Anyway, he couldn’t tell me more because he had a team of people that like to mentor and invest in people that have expressed an adequate interest and that fit the profile of their “entrepreneur” and that then and only then would I be able to learn more. But first, he’d like to meet up to get coffee…
The idea was intriguing – I know what you’re thinking, but I had to know more so I could write about this!
Meet-up
We met for coffee at a Starbucks. I recognized him from the picture in his LinkedIn profile. I’m not going to lie, he looked pretty well put together: button-up shirt, slacks, well groomed, pro-looking.
We started off by just conversing. I thought if I played the friendly and chatty card, he’d divulge more than he’d be prepared to. After about 30 minutes of banter, he did a great job segueing into the topic at hand, “so would you say you’re satisfied with your life and the path that you’re taking?”
Yeah, I think so. “What about your dreams and are you doing what you really love?” Well, I mean, I’m striving to achieve my dreams as much as anyone is, working hard, developing my career, raising my family, etc. Aren’t we all?
He continued to talk about the successes that he has accomplished. He likes to network with people, he’s even built up a successful network in the Greater Denver area (whatever that means) and likes to connect. His idea of success is being able to bring people together, “what if one day Mayor Hickenlooper calls me for advice on a problem, and I tell him, ‘I don’t know anything about that, BUT I do know this guy Matt that would be able to help…’ and then boom, you’re connected with the mayor.”
He proceeded to tell me about his mentor. There was an incredibly talented Mechanical Engineer from Florida. He has several patents, was very successful, but got tired of working for someone else and knew he had the entrepreneurial mindset. That’s how this engineer found this very same guy I’m talking to right now: he started looking for success-driven people.
He described the definition of wealth as not just money, but time. Money to do what you want and Time to be able to do it. That is true and it is healthy to pursue a strong sense of wealth, but here we are talking about wealth and this great opportunity but there is no meat or substance to this discussion.
Almost the entirety of the next hour was devoted to talking about buzz-topics: Success, Entrepreneurship, Working Your Own Hours, Spending Time with Family, Business Mindset, Being Driven, Hunger for More, Motivation, Mentorship…(you get the idea).
Deflections
Interspersed throughout our entire hour-and-a-half together, I kept pursuing the same question that had been on my mind since he first contacted me: what is it exactly that I would be doing?
This whole eCommerce/business thing.
Here is the message I’ve managed to piece together through an exhausting but patient process of gleaning as much information as I could. My role would be to work with large companies like Target and Best Buy (he keeps dropping the same large company names over and over again), where I would try to obtain online traffic towards their websites because they are losing their business to places like Amazon and eBay.
Okay. How does one go about doing this? “That’s the beauty of it. You can do it any way you want!”
That’s great, how do other people manage to be successful? “They just spend more time at it in the beginning, grow, learn, and become talented. But you wouldn’t be alone at all. We have excellent mentors that will guide you, train you to be successful.” Didn’t really answer what I wanted to know.
How would I interact with the customers? “There are many various ways, and we expect people with the entrepreneur in them to get there.”
So I made it clear what this guy’s position was in this collective program (I don’t know how else to describe it – very smoke and mirrors thus far) by asking him directly. He was essentially a talent scout or recruiter. He meets with people every week and then determines if they “have what it takes.”
He could only tell me so much though, because this whole process is a learning experience. Here is how he tried to convince me:
“You know, we could sit down, I could take you through the entire process, and you’d maybe be able to absorb maybe 10% of what we talk about. Or, we could make this a more casual, laid-back process, where we meet several times and I expose more and more each time what is involved” Very friendly. Also, I’m sure I can easily keep track of more than just 10% of what we would talk about. Try me.
So I’m thinking to myself, if I could be this successful, why is he just a talent scout? Is being a talent scout more lucrative than someone performing in this role?
So how do you benefit from this program? I assume you get a commission? “That is correct.”
The Catch
A fool and his money are soon parted
So finally, toward the end of the conversation, I ask the most blaring question that you can think of, “is there an initial investment?”
“To be honest and straightforward, there is an initial investment. It’s nothing huge or outlandish, but it shows us your commitment to wanting to pursue this avenue of learning, mentorship, and growing. It’s an investment in your success.”
Aha, understood.
We concluded by having a conversation about mentorship and I asked about what books he reads and recommends for people in this role. (He must have mentioned these damned mentors about 200 times)
If I wanted to pursue this role, he would have a talk with his team and mentors about bringing me onboard (this sounds very lofty) to be part of this incredible team. I would be given the opportunity to learn from the best, business-minded mentors available, and become as successful as they are.
Which books did he recommend? Robert Kiyosaki. The author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad and other works. Google this author and you’ll see a lot of articles about his shady dealings (as well as his riches). He is wealthy, but he’s under a lot of scrutiny. Anyway, the guy I had met up with said I should read the book and then get back to him; I think he was aware that I was aware, of this whole game because he didn’t want to spend much more time with me other than to leave it at that.
I’m tempted to go in further just to see what else is going on here. Exposé?
Things to Watch For
- Someone you’ve never met before contacts you. Social media is excellent at allowing people to cast a large net. Imagine you message 5,000 people and only 1-2 get back to you. It takes nothing and is easy. Typing a message and clicking send is free. This is the modern rich Nigerian Prince scam.
- “Do you have the entrepreneurial spirit?” This question gets you to really look at yourself and doubt everything you’ve been doing thus far. OBVIOUSLY if you’re not already rolling in the dough you’re doing it wrong… You’ll want to respond with “hell yeah I’m entrepreneurial! I’m ready to go. How dare you doubt my ability to pursue my dreams!”
- Lack of direct and concrete answers. I hate nebulous language – what are you hiding? I also hate all the grandiose language aimed at building up my ego and self image (are you a self-starter, smart, driven) without having anything to place it on (I don’t know how to pit my ambitions against this role, because I don’t know any of the details.)
- Initial Investment. If you “invest” in your success by giving us $100, we’ll get you everything you’ve every hoped for: teaching, training, success, and obviously more wealth.
- Lack of transparency. There’s a reason why [successful] investors research and thoroughly check all the information in front of them before they even think about investing any more time and money. I cannot believe he would even for a moment think that I would continue into something like this without any information. No intelligent, self-respecting being would do that!
- Playing on your emotions. Surely you would love to be rich, successful, and do anything you ever wanted. The image of you being those things gets imbedded in your mind so deeply that you can’t help but fantasize. John Oliver has an excellent section on Pyramid Schemes.
- Argumentative Fallacies – Such as Argument from Repetition (kept answering my question about eCommerce with the same responses), Circular Reasoning, Appeal to Authority (he has “successful” mentors and engineers on his team), Thought-terminating Clichés (defining Wealth=Time + Money as enough motivation to pursue role), and Appeal to Emotion among others.
- Multi-level marketing. With Multi-level marketing (MLM) you hope you’re on top, otherwise, you’re relying on people below you to make you successful. It’s a pyramid scheme. Think, “why do you want me to be successful? You just met me. Why would you share a piece of your pie when you could take a bigger one for yourself? Unless I offer a larger benefit for you than I would for myself.”
- Don’t think you’re invulnerable. The guy I talked to was intelligent. Well put together. He was a communications major and had worked in management for over a decade. However, he had a rhythm and had talking points that he regularly practices and gets to use. You don’t. I tried my best to disrupt his way of talking as much as I could and it made him try hard to stay on track. He was a KellyAnne Conway – answering questions without really providing adequate answers.
- Follow your gut. Does this seem sketchy and make you feel nervous? It should. Listen to your intuition.
This guy also dropped big names to get me hooked (Target, Best Buy, Macy’s, Amazon, eBay). He talked in a confident manner. And he talked fast. He had a ready answer for many of my questions. He practiced for sure and had talked to many other people before me, so I’ll give him that.
Hey there,
Just wanted to say I avoided a LOT of hassle because of this post. I had the same thing happen to me. I copied/pasted the reply of the person reaching out when I asked what it was I would be doing, into google, and your blog post popped up because it was almost word-for-word what your person responded to you.
Thanks for putting this up, much appreciated.
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Excellent. I’m so glad it was able to help!
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Just encountered this today in Oakland, CA… it went down exactly as you described. “First contact,” “the phone call,” “the meet-up.” They (it was a couple) wore “business casual”. After a “get to know you” phase, the convo started to be about their “path” and “values”, discovered via “mentorship”, the value of “time” (reiterated, as you mention), something about an “ecommerce platform”. I didn’t have the patience to stick around to see how the pitch would unfold beyond that. I feel like I need a brain cleanse now.
Anyway, thanks for your post. It describes with eerie accuracy the encounter.
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You just saved me from this! I really thought I had met a nice person in the store, but nope I met a con artist. So glad I didn’t even get to the meetup phase. I was done after the phone call!
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What was the company?
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The person was working by themselves and claimed to have a “team” of mentors. An actual company was never mentioned…which is exactly why I thought all this was suspicious in the first place when I kept asking for more information. I was contacted via LinkedIn. As for the companies I’d be “working” with, it was the name-brand stores like Target, Best Buy, Macy’s, etc.
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I was wondering because I have a friend that’s working with MNU and does ecommerce. Not sure how the whole ecommerce mlm thing works.
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So happy I found this… This is exactly what happened to me! She claimed over the course of 4-6 weeks she would mentor me and introduce me to other successful people who would teach me to become so successful I would eventually have a steady income and no longer have to work within 2-5 years. The biggest red flag was that she never came out and said what it was that she did as a job other than just that she worked in e-commerce and is an entrepreneur. She had nothing to show for how pararently successful she was.
Would love to know what these people are really doing but don’t wanna get that far into it personally.
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I am glad I saw this. This happened to me as well!! Please be careful and not give too much information out about yourself. It is just not worth it. There is no such thing as a get rich quick scheme unless you win the lottery.
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I’m about to go to a meet-up/presentation tonight. I had two coffee meetings with an acquaintance who I haven’t seen in two years. We ran into each other on the street, he called me a week later wanting to meet-up, oddly enough, at Starbucks for coffee. Our conversation was eerily similar to what you described above. Everything from the name drops of big companies, the 4-6 week plan, the mentors and the mention of e-commerce. Our meeting revolved around Robert Kiyosaki’s 4 quadrants of making money and how I can get to the top right quadrant where only 5% of the population reside.
I’m going to the actual presentation out of curiosity more than anything, I’m glad I stumbled upon this article, thank you for being very transparent with your readers. If I remember, I will have a follow up of how the actual presentation (supposed to be some successful “entrepreneurs” presenting there). Thanks again.
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Stephen, thanks for the comment! Fortunately you know what should be coming your way in the presentation. I hope you can reply with your experience; I’d be curious to see what you were exposed to.
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Hi, I had this same meeting today at… you guessed right Starbucks. Holy shit this is the exact flow of the meeting. Going in I knew it was a sort of pyramid scheme but I wanted to check that out anyways because my friend always talked about this elusive business of his never in much detail. I was always trying to pull some info from him but he always elusive and throwing up the words like “potential of millions” “growth and learning” “4-5 years hard work and retire”. Goddammit!! how are these people not under legal action.
It was is great to read your blog and that too right after the meeting. I’ll share this blog around as much so no one will be victims of that schemes.
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Just ran into someone like this yesterday. This scheme is rampant in the Bay Area. It’s the third time I have ran into someone trying to pull me in on the same e-commerce idea. This time I had to look into it and your post is identical to what happened to me. Wanted to meet at Starbucks and talk more about the “opportunity”. I was tempted to do what you did but based on your post it probably wouldn’t get me any closer to an answer. From what I gather they get people to use a link to buy products from Target, Best Buy, Macy’s, etc. at a slight discount, but get you on high shipping costs. You are paid pennies on the dollar and your mentor makes a little more and his mentor makes a little more, etc, etc. The people that buy on their “platform” is how they make their money “hand over fist”. This is why it isn’t illegal because they are selling legitimate products at a discount. If you live in the Bay Area watch out for this. Great post!
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Hello, my girlfriend and I had the same experience today. Met with another couple that was spouting the same thing everyone else has said and being very vague about what they were actually trying to do. I do have to admit that I am somewhat intrigued about the next step in the process. They want us to come to their apartment and hear a presentation from their mentor to give us more detail. My question is…. how are these people actually making money? Say I pay $100 to get into this, I am assuming that the people that “found us” will get a percentage of that money. But then what? do they just continue to recruit people and make money off the people we were to recruit? Does the Ecommerce website ever come into play or even exist?
Any input would be appreciated!
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Are you Redditor? Please check out the r/AntiMLM at: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiMLM/
I hope that subreddit will have some good resources that may answer your question. The side panel has some additional resources too!
I’m certainly glad my blog caught your attention – ultimately, the time and money that you spend is yours. Is the presentation free? Or do you have to spend the $100 to attend? Once at your friend’s apartment, it may be difficult to leave, so make sure you and your GF have a plan ahead of time: I personally hate making commitments immediately after finding out about something. I like time to mull it over. So my recommendation is to attend (if free) and then deny signing up for anything until you have a chance to sleep on it. If you get pressured (and you definitely will) to make any investment in time or money, just explain how ridiculous it would be to purchase a car, for example, without checking it out and other vehicles to compare and doing some research from Consumer Reports and reviews, and jumping into a commitment blind.
Best of luck, I hope to hear more!
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We had the exact same experience a second time yesterday. Fortunately I was aware of this and didnt bite the bait. Can we get the police involved so that this stops? What legal steps can be taken?
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Thank you so much for posting this in detail!! The same thing has happened to me where she connected via LinkedIn, and recommended I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad before meeting up again to discuss more. Really appreciate that I could finally find some answers about this sketchy ‘opportunity’ and you’re right, I should listen to my gut! Phew thanks again!
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Oh my goodness I had the same experience not too long ago where I was working at a fast-food restaurant at the time and This Guy’s daughter was crying so do you stop that I gave her a gummy candy that we give kids for like a kids meal this wasn’t McDonald’s but as soon as I gave his daughter that candy she looked at me with confidence and said hey man you look like a really stand-up guy Who’s down to earth and who has good customer service skills and he asked me my goals and dreams in life being that I was a cashier at the time as he witnessed and said to me I have a close friend more like a mentor that guided me the right path to my success in life and sends me and my girlfriend have joined this company our business has grown exponentially and has given us the success that we are proud of today. And he said I would like to set up a meeting maybe you did that you’re free so we can get talking about this. And the guy was very very friendly like to Friendly and wanted me to read some books the same books that were in this article that I just read it was called the rich and poor dad and something about the success of life and I got a little deeper into it and they started talking about Amway and their partner stores like Best Buy Under Armour Home Depot Macy’s things like that and down the line I realized that I didn’t have the time or money to do any of these things even though they sounded very intriguing I Saw the red flags it was more like a pyramid scheme that I saw it to be. And as soon as I stopped messaging them I thought that they got the picture that I didn’t want to continue instead they sent me a long paragraph about calling me out on not being a man and doing what is right so I had to force them to stop contacting me because I didn’t see that as appropriate or right at all because they didn’t even know me but they really do draw you in.
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